Curse

Columbo · Jan 22, 2007, 05:35 AM // 05:35

I have not posted here before but I have some very big interest in GW. I know that PVP people will always say that GW was designed for PVP. However I trully believe that the servers for the amount of PVE coding to PVP Coding is much bigger. Why would A-net build such huge maps, areas and enemy for PVE based game if all they cared about was PVP ?. But for a long time now it seems that A-net have no care about what they nerf just for PVP'ers. I also do PVP and love that also but I have really had enough of this skill nerfing just so HOH is more ballanced. For example :- My warrior since the day he capped Gladiator's defence elite has used nothing else. IMO it is one of the most difficult and annoying skills to cap (Dragons lair last elite). But due to the difficulty in capping this skill it IMO has been the best warrior elite in the game. My warrior has never used any other elite for PVE. Yet this PVP testing weekend turn's up and it has been nurfed. I now find my warrior using rubbish skills like charge as elite I mean OMG the worst elite in game (Which all henchies have BTW which is rediculous they don't run anyone anywhere). I trully understand that it is impossible for A-net to keep everyone who play's this game happy. However I think that it has come to a point where A-net need's to seperate the PVP'ers from the PVE'ers. If certain skill's need to be the way they are for PVP ballancing then it need's to be that they have different uses for PVP and PVE.

For example at this time Elementalist's are being called "overpowering" in PVP. In which case A-net must make Elementalist skill's for PVE different from how they work in PVP. I have been wiped out by PVE Elementalist bosses countless time's while PVE'ing but Im ok with that Double damage for bosses etc. As long as my Elementalist is equally as deadly to them as I they are to me and my team and that goes for every other class of character. Introducing rediculous monster only skill's like enraged is not the way to make PVE more challenging at all. And at the same time nerfing the only means we have to defeat skill's like that is making a majority (IMO) just want to stop playing this game completely.

In short PVP is yes, a very big part of this game, but somewhere along the way A-net has forgotten that there is a huge PVE element to this game also and there are many fan's there that need to be accomadated for also.

There are a million and one bug's they seem not to care about fixing with chest spawn point's (Inaccessable) and AI response (Running forever, Breaking Agro not returning) to name just two.

I would not have bothered to get involved in the picking and pokeing of this game had it not been for the nerf of Gladiator's defence elite this weekend.

And I trully hope warrior lovers amoung you will agree with me here, this skill should not be changed to how it is now, forever (As a PVP ballance issue). A skill that good and that hard to aquire should remain one of (If not the best) warrior skill in the game. I am very open to all feedback to my post Be it good or bad so please all those of you out there who are probably more Knowledged about GW than I am let me know if you have any opinion's on my post.

I hope that the admin from this site realise that this post of mine has been added solely because of the skill ballancing weekend for PVP (HOH) etc. And accept that it is for A-net to please try to take some notice of and do not remove it from this part of the forum.

Rieselle · Jan 22, 2007, 05:54 AM // 05:54

Whilst you are free to play the game however you want, nonetheless there are attitudes that will help you enjoy the game more, and attitudes that will cause you to enjoy it less.

If you only want to ever use one elite for your warrior, then I think you'll have a problem.

GW is a game under constant change. This is generally a good thing, most people will agree.

PvP Balance is more important than having powerful skills in PvE, so it is inevitable that some skills will get nerfed, which will cause PvE characters to lose some power. (eg. Searing Flames).

If you want to enjoy GW to its fullest, then I suggest you learn to enjoy changing your build, trying different things, and adapting to change.

Besides, Gladiator's is actually not a very good Elite. There are far more fun and amazing warrior elites available, like Dragon Slash.

Unless you're farming. In which case, suffer and die :P

Columbo · Jan 22, 2007, 06:06 AM // 06:06

Thanks for being the first to offer some opinion on my post and yes I understand your point. It is not that Im not open to adapt like changing my Elite for my warrior etc. It's only that for now the elite that work's (and has worked) best for my way of playing as a warrior is that particular skill. It just works for me in my way (not that I don't play other ways or use other elites). But my point is also part of what you say as your post. Quote:-

"PvP Balance is more important than having powerful skills in PvE, so it is inevitable that some skills will get nerfed, which will cause PvE characters to lose some power. (eg. Searing Flames)".

Does it really have to be that one of PVP or PVE must be "More Important" than the other ?. Can there not be some ballance between the two different styles of game play and A-net seperate the two to accomadate both types of player ?. As I say make the skill's work one way for PVP and totally different for PVE ?. Why does it have to be that just because A-net changes the description of a skill that it is for both PVP and PVE ? And that they cannot make it different description's for the two different style's of play ?.

LikeWhoa · Jan 22, 2007, 06:11 AM // 06:11

I agree with a lot of what you say about how PvP nerfs should be seperated from PvE nerfs but you cant blame PvP for Glad's defense nerf. Blame your fellow PvEers as Glad's defense was probably nerfed to stop farming.

*Has never ever seen Glad's defense used in pvp

thelastwolf · Jan 22, 2007, 06:21 AM // 06:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by LikeWhoa

I agree with a lot of what you say about how PvP nerfs should be seperated from PvE nerfs but you cant blame PvP for Glad's defense nerf. Blame your fellow PvEers as Glad's defense was probably nerfed to stop farming.

*Has never ever seen Glad's defense used in pvp

I have; it was used on a monk. I laughed.

Columbo · Jan 22, 2007, 06:29 AM // 06:29

Again thank's and yes you are right also, I also say the same I've never seen Glad's defence used in PVP and it probably is because of the farming thing. But it is just because of this weekend that makes me think it is being nerfed for that reason.

It's not so much about glad's defence but PVP vs PVE in general with the skill nerfing most skill's seem to be nerfed for PVP reason's. Therefore there must come some kind of seperation or one of the two styles of play will always be neglected and ruined.

I myself have a 55 monk for instance but everything I've farmed has been by myself and still takes time and effort. Yes it is an abuse of the game but I do not personaly farm to make money , I farm to benefit my own characters and heroe's etc. I do not do it to sell to make rediculous in game money or real IRL money.

I have resently returned to Tyria with my Necro who need's to finish the game and In granite citidel can sit and watch 100 or more 55ing bot's running into Tusca's demise to farm god know's what and I also believe that this kind of farming is ruining the game.

A-net seem's more interested in nerfing skill's to prevent this kind of farming than banning those that abuse the game in this way. But IMO it is not the skill's that need to be nerfed as it still takes a real player time and effort to farm. It is the bot's that need to be stopped.

In short A-net is not looking at thing's in the right place. They are in effect ruining the game for those who play and enjoy it for those who don't play and abuse it.

And Im going off topic here so I will end post there. But it still is true to your post, farming can also be a problem but IMO shouldn't be for those who take time to do it for real without a bot. And therefore no need to nerf skill's just Ban the botter's.

Bankai · Jan 22, 2007, 06:38 AM // 06:38

I'm very lazy so I only read the first 2 paragraphs.

ANet intended the game to be mainly PvP. PvP was supposed to be the main part of the game. However, in their original plan you couldn't make pvp characters, everybody was forced to use a pve-character. So you slowly build it up in pve, and then go pvp after finishing the game.

However, they didn't count on the people that say they haven't got enough time for pvp and then do Domain of Anguish.

That last line was sarcasm.

Thom Bangalter · Jan 22, 2007, 06:44 AM // 06:44

PvE is their moneymaker.

Columbo · Jan 22, 2007, 06:51 AM // 06:51

It's not so much what it was designed for, It's what the game has become everyone even PVP'ers must agree that there is more PVE content in this game than PVP. And most PVP'ers probably hate that fact. And I agree about the DOA thing LMAO time is not an issue with this game you either have it or you don't

. But still the whole playing PVE to do PVP thing just doesn't make sense to me. All my character's were Lvl 20 in Maguma so why bother with the Asention and onward's and UW and FOW etc. It's just pointless because a gold chest will still allow you to unlock max weapon upgrades for PVP and a gold armor will still allow you to unlock superior runes etc. I got my first Superior Vigor in Sanctum Cay with my first Tyrian character (Lucky Maybe) but still it was enough to unlock it for PVP. So why is it that people think PVE is just there to make PVP possible ? Yes it is true that it is needed to be asended to enter HOH but why bother with all that coding when you could just create a game that was PVP only and let people fight each other on like 8 maps? Easy, cheap and simple and no need for huge server's ( Which cost loads of money) with massive map's, enemy, and quest's to explore and allow all content to be bought with faction earned by being good in PVP based only play?

Thallandor · Jan 22, 2007, 07:04 AM // 07:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rieselle

PvP Balance is more important than having powerful skills in PvE, so it is inevitable that some skills will get nerfed, which will cause PvE characters to lose some power. (eg. Searing Flames).

If your logic is correct, i assume the next chapter will just be a PvP skill pack of new professions without the PvE content. Seriously why even borther.

This issue is getting old and stale and i have just about enough BS(?)/changes after 1.5 years of supporting GW to be sprouting more hate posts on a fan site forum.

Thom Bangalter · Jan 22, 2007, 07:11 AM // 07:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thallandor

If your logic is correct, i assume the next chapter will just be a PvP skill pack of new professions without the PvE content. Seriously why even borther.

They already did that for nightfall.

Columbo · Jan 22, 2007, 07:19 AM // 07:19

Thallandor. You are right it is getting old and stale and yes I agree with you there is more to PVE than most people want to believe. But I really have tried to post a topic that is open for any opinion and I really wish that this post does not turn into one against another. The idea of my post was to get those who agree together as one to make a real difference in the way A-net conducts it's action's. As they have given us for the first time a real place to voice opinion's they say they will be taking into account. And is really about the changing of skills to benefit PVP or PVE and nothing more than that. I really was not intending this thread to become a war between PVP'ers and PVE'ers more like a comprimise of both to accept that both are great styles of fun and play, But should be seperated by A-net to be two different thing's

SodOffShotgun · Jan 22, 2007, 07:19 AM // 07:19

PVP is not killing PVE. Boring, stagnant predictability is what's killing PVE. Go into an instance and it's the same exact thing each time. The mobs are the same. The skills they use are the same. The number and position of where the mobs are is the same. The paths you take in PVE are so restricted that you basically are taking the same exact path you took last time. Nothing ever changes.

And when you kill all the monsters in a certain area, it's just empty wasteland. There's really no point in exploring. There's no random people you meet because it's all instanced. The world doesnt feel alive.

So no...PVP sure isnt the reason for "killing" PVE.

Wasteland Squidget · Jan 22, 2007, 07:25 AM // 07:25

They don't base their balance change on PvP because they think PvE is less important - quite the contrary, the majority of Arenanet's resources are poured exclusively into the PvE content of the game. They make balance changes based on PvP because, bluntly, balance really isn't very relevant in PvE.

Most people who do PvE play it pretty casually - they love 'their' character and 'their' build and they choose things based on how they look or the gameplay or any number of other reasons besides "this is the best character." Once you actually start powergaming GW PvE it becomes laughably easy. The challenge quickly becomes finding the way to farm the same mobs over and over as quickly as possible. The challenge isn't beating the mission or group, the challenge is how fast you can kill them and pick up their loot.

Since most PvE players are casual, whether one skill is better than another isn't going to matter that much to them. They'll continue using their character and slogging through, and the worst thing an overpowered skill can do is make the farming go a little faster. In PvP, an overpowered skill is game-breaking, forcing everyone to use a single tactic if they want to be competitive, and creating a stale and boring metagame.

In short, PvE is balanced for casual play, and PvP is balanced for competitive play. It has nothing to do with Arenanet's priorities and everything to do with the nature of the gametypes themselves.

gonyong · Jan 22, 2007, 07:31 AM // 07:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

They already did that for nightfall.

Wow, this reply doesn't even make sense. Nightfall has one of the longest gameplay and storyline out of the three (a great improvement over Factions, which was mostly conducive to PvPing); why spend time on a storyline when you can just PvP; why add quests (and they have been adding new quests) when you can just PvP? They have also included new armor and new rare skins, which adds a new element to the economy that I don't think is as important to people who just want to PvP.

idicious · Jan 22, 2007, 07:40 AM // 07:40

Actually Glads Defense still works fine for most of what it used to, been playing around with it a bit and had to change my old riposte build a bit because otherwise the energy requirment was to high but it still works fine imo. I use it to farm (so flame me

I do it ot farm materials mostly) and to do things like UW , FoW and endgame missions etc and as far as I can tell with a bit of tweaking to your build it should still work.

As for the general pvp effecting pve, in a game like GW I fear its just inevitable, and we must learn to addapt

Thallandor · Jan 22, 2007, 07:51 AM // 07:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

They don't base their balance change on PvP because they think PvE is less important - quite the contrary, the majority of Arenanet's resources are poured exclusively into the PvE content of the game. They make balance changes based on PvP because, bluntly, balance really isn't very relevant in PvE.

Most people who do PvE play it pretty casually - they love 'their' character and 'their' build and they choose things based on how they look or the gameplay or any number of other reasons besides "this is the best character." Once you actually start powergaming GW PvE it becomes laughably easy. The challenge quickly becomes finding the way to farm the same mobs over and over as quickly as possible. The challenge isn't beating the mission or group, the challenge is how fast you can kill them and pick up their loot.

Since most PvE players are casual, whether one skill is better than another isn't going to matter that much to them. They'll continue using their character and slogging through, and the worst thing an overpowered skill can do is make the farming go a little faster. In PvP, an overpowered skill is game-breaking, forcing everyone to use a single tactic if they want to be competitive, and creating a stale and boring metagame.

In short, PvE is balanced for casual play, and PvP is balanced for competitive play. It has nothing to do with Arenanet's priorities and everything to do with the nature of the gametypes themselves.

I agree with you for the well written comment. However despite popular belief, the PvE isnt neccessary all about farming even if it can be fun to find loot and get rich to afford things, but i wont agrue with you on grounds of technicality.

The matter of fact is that there are two seperate components of the game using/being affected by a singular important feature in the game: Skills.

While this is knowledge is nothing new to us,skill balancing was a problem when the competition ladder started, it is a problem and most likely will still be a problem in the future.

Why? Because in truth, Skills will never be truely be balanced.

The only "balanced" skills are the one no one uses anymore. PvP players will just exploit something else to gain an advantage over other players which will highlight further "unbalanced" skills to be rebalanced and so fore and it keep repeating itself. Even if all skills were balanced, it will still come down to response timing and hand eye co-ordination in FPS games. Are we gonna balance that as well?

While the idea may sound romantic, imagine having over 200 skills on a PvE toons with close of 90% of its skills "balanced" to the point of uselessness. PvE characters require much more time and gold to nuture unlike PvP toons. Do you now understand why freaking PvErs are screaming at you each time our characters becomes "balanced" ?

Edit: i am quite sure the mods are gonna come in and close this now with "we only discussing weekend test blah blah blah."

________________________
Long Live Freedom of Speech

deadmonkey4u · Jan 22, 2007, 08:16 AM // 08:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thallandor

The only "balanced" skills are the one no one uses anymore. PvP players will just exploit something else to gain an advantage over other players which will highlight further "unbalanced" skills to be rebalanced and so fore and it keep repeating itself. Even if all skills were balanced, it will still come down to response timing and hand eye co-ordination in FPS games. Are we gonna balance that as well?

I don't agree. Their are skills I feel balanced and used. The unbalanced skills essentially are the skills that are so powerful you have to play it or play its counter. A skill that essentially kills off most builds and forces you to use certain skills are what I would consider unbalanced. Stuff no one uses is fairly rare (im including pve and pvp since obviously not all skills are meant for pvp).

red orc · Jan 22, 2007, 08:28 AM // 08:28

GW is an evolving game. You have to accept it to play it. I play both pvp and pve. The game changes and you have to adapt to it. If you dont like adapting you will have to play other games. I used to have an ele build I loved. Now came factions and the introduction of sins. Do you know what it did to my build ? I had to change it cause now I could not ignore a sin near me, cause it was instant death. My ele had to have blind and the whole build was changed. Then they introduced nightfall and OMG dervish. Now all my enhancements were useless and my ele had to change once again. No more energy elite, they are useless, no more enhancments, welcome glyphs. That's the way the game works. I agree that this is hard for PvE only player to accept, but this is the way of the future. You will have smarter and smarter monsters that will use thier skills more similar to humans in pve also and skills will have to be adjusted there as well.

Thallandor · Jan 22, 2007, 08:33 AM // 08:33

Thats what i am saying, just go ahead and make a PvP only chapter, i dare you.

Cause Frankly speaking the PvE is getting shittier every day.